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PostSubject: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:31 am

Alright folks, there has apparently been some confusion lately as to how renown and rank works. To clear up some things:

The STs chart renown. The player does not chart his or her own renown. All renown must be sent to the ST staff where we will judge how much it is worth and if it is deserved. (If you would like to put the book suggestion in the e-mail, that's fine, but not a guarantee). We also take into consideration submissions of negative renown. That's a thing.

The STs will tell you when you are eligible for rank. You do not get to say, "My renown record says this and so now I do it." STs must be involved for the ENTIRE process of ranking. That means, we tell you that you are ready to challenge, we must be there for the rite of accomplishment and we must see the challenge being issued and accepted. This might seem micromanaging, but rank is significant in Garou and we need to make sure that people aren't "Rounding up to Elder".

There is a standard that is accepted in the Org for "Minimum time" needed between ranks. It's not in the House Rules because it's not a House Rule. It's a spoken and unwritten standard in the Org. We all know it, but just because you meet the time doesn't mean you get to challenge.

Remember - your renown is certainly not what you think it is. Just because you claim a whole bunch doesn't mean it winds up on the sheet. It's important to remember that there is a such thing as negative renown and even if you don't claim it in submission that other people might be claiming it for you (that's kind of the role of Ragabash and Galliards to a lesser extant).

When it comes to rank and renown don't assume.
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:27 pm

I think I understand the primary concern for the STs here: rank and renown provide concrete mechanical and genre advantages, and the best way to ensure all players get a fair shake is to moderate the renown system.

That being said, as a player, I have a few concerns of my own. I'd appreciate it if you can address them. The interwebz doesn't carry emotions very well, so please be advised that none of the following is meant as hostile or antagonistic.

1.) Can we find out our current renown, or are we limited to a "Ready/Not Ready" answer? It's definitely useful to know how shy of our goal we're sitting at, especially if we're lacking in a field we didn't realize we're low on (due to negative Renown dropping our score, or ST-approved renown being far less than what we hoped for).

2.) How is this going to affect roleplay? It seems as though anything involving renown is going to require ST involvement. The recent scene with the Challenge Mound on the forums seems to have idled for a few days because players needed to work with STs on renown scores. I know we already discourage anything that's chop-based from taking place on the forums...should players be advised that anything renown-based will require turnaround as well?

3.) Even ignoring the boards for a moment, this means that anytime renown comes up during game-time, a player is going to need to seek out an ST. Will all the STs have ready access to every players renown, or are we establishing a Renown ST? I'd assume that info like that will be on the computer in the ST room, which means that that machine's (and whichever ST has to use it) going to be tied up more than it already is. Again, we already need to come to STs to adjucate ritual chops, mass combat, certain Gift Activations, etc. It might not seem it, but funnelling all renown-related stuff through the STs may take up a large chunk of their time. Depending on what's going on at game, this can get pretty frustrating...a player wants to know how much Glory they have, but they have to wait for combat to end to find out.

4.) To advance in rank, characters already need to wait a set amount of time, engage in a number of (potentially life-threatening) activities that will earn them the necessary Renown, succeed in one or more Rites of Accomplishment, and succeed in a task assigned to them by another PC. I don't feel as though renown is an easy thing to navigate in the first place...is total ST control really all that necessary?

5.) It's possible that I misheard or misunderstood this next one. Is it true that if a combat gets narrated, less (or no) renown is earned? I prefer roleplaying out a fight, but if that choice is going to earn my character less renown, I may suck it up and throw chops for an hour.

6.) Won't this decision promote more combat? If characters are earning less Renown than they thought they were, they'll need to do even more "stuff" to get the amount they've earned in the past (and to keep up with the Jones's in other chronicles). That means, amongst other things, there's going to be more fighting the Wyrm. I played an Ahroun once upon a time, and I recall my "renown-grinding" as being a very frustrating process, because despite all the Wyrm that's out there to battle, the staff-at-the-time wasn't keen on running combat after combat, so my PC "just couldn't find any".
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:38 pm

The conversation about "winning and losing" has been had before (twice IIRC) in regards to UaEM. I don't want to see this turn into a third time. Talking about "Keeping up" and "joneses" and all that has nothing to do with this explanation of administrative approach. This is us telling you "Hey guys... nothing has changed in the way stuff gets done. Why are you assuming you get to do whatever you want all the sudden?" not "Muahaha. You now get to have weak characters."

I'll still address everything though.

1) Renown isn’t supposed to be meant to be currency that one gathers to progress. Renown is meant to be earned (or not earned) based on deeds and say something about a character. There is also the fact that renown is required differently for different auspices and it’s tailored towards what they are supposed to be doing. If you’re an Ahroun you are supposed to fight (and get renown). If you are a Theurge you do spirit stuff (and get Wisdom renown). It shouldn’t be like, “Oh. I’m so close to my honor mark. I better make sure I do an Honor thing this next game so I can challenge.” Hard numbers are not an issue in any other game I know of.

2) How –is- it going to affect roleplay? Renown isn’t talked about like it’s a tangible thing. It is literally supposed to be stories. If characters are trying to distill stories into a commodity then they are wrong. The message board scene idled for a few days because people were waiting on a player to respond. The player himself said he hadn’t responded because he had been sick. That had nothing to do with renown. In fact, when renown came into it the situation was handled within 15 minutes. If not keeping track of your own renown will affect your roleplaying on the board or otherwise then renown is being misunderstood by that player.

3) Again, renown doesn’t “come up” since you can’t roll up one someone and say “I have this stuff. Wht’s up.” It’s an OOC mechanic to account for the stories that are told about your character. If a person REALLLY needs to know their standing with the spirits and how far spread their stories are then they get to utilize the genre by going to a Theurge or a Galliard, having them summon up spirits, barter for the information and get a feeling of where they stand (“He’s pretty honorable… but never does anything glorious… maybe if he was more glorious his name would be heard louder”). If anyone is coming at you like “I have 2 glory!” IC I would hope characters are giving them the “What are you talking about? Is that a new brand of potato chips?” Because that’s not how it flies IC. This will not tie up the STs anymore. The other games in the region don’t have any issue with the ST staff keeping track of renown and letting people know when they are ready to challenge. In fact it seems to keep players more focused on roleplaying than trying to “Win” and “keep up with the Jones”.

4) How ranking works: That’s the genre. Renown: ST control of renown is as necessary as ST control of your experience. We control every other aspect of your sheet. Why should renown be different? You shouldn’t get to be an Elder just because you played for 2 years. You should actually be active and risking your character. Genre dictates that most Garou don’t make it past Fostern and it’s because they do dangerous things. If you are playing the genre appropriately you shouldn’t even be worrying about the renown because you will be getting it. I know for a fact that there are characters who have renown to be one and a half elders because they do stuff and that there are others who don’t do anything, but think that they do.

5) This is something that only affected one group of people one time, but since you brought it up. Why should renown be for free? If there is no danger (i.e you are guaranteed to win) then there is no Glory in it… literally. In fact the renown for fights says “an X threat” … if you are an Elder kicking around a little 1 essence bane… that’s not noteworthy at all. You don’t get to earn renown just by showing up. Renown is a risk/reward system.

6) No it won’t. Why? Because renown gain does not equal combat. There are massive charts and lists for ways to earn renown without throwing a chop. Some renown is earned through roleplay, some through influence actions, some through study. Most of the glory renown is combat.. yes… but not much in the ways of Wisdom or Honor. Ahroun renown is based on Glroy. Ahroun also fight. If you are a Theurge who is trying to “grind” through combats you are doing it wrong.

Werewolf is not an MMO. You aren’t trying to “grind for cool lewtz”. You are trying to enhance a story. If you are coming to the game in an attempt to “win” (however you define that) then I would suggest rethinking why you roleplay. There are many games that you can win… this isn’t really one of them. This staff is about making compelling story. There will be combat and there will be puzzles and such, but we want addition to a story, not trying to best everyone else.

Eerie Moon has always had the ST staff track renown. What I want to know is why the sudden assumptions that players are allowed to determine it themselves? Again, not only has EM been this way for as long as I know, every other game in the region has the staff assigning appropriate renown. Once you start attempting to write what is or isn’t on your sheet without ST oversight you start getting into territory that is awful close to cheating. After all, what is the difference between recording your own renown with ST oversight and spending your XP without ST oversight? Should everyone be allowed to track their own sheets for everything? We're in a world wide Org and need to be accountable. It's a game of dozens. Numbers mean hierarchy. Hierarchy means a small percentage being accountable.





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Sir Maximilian Canning

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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:53 pm

I'm on board with Jason here. Maybe it's because I'm playing a cliath again, but it seems like players with high rank and renown are advocating to keep the rest of the game down. This may not be the case, but on the surface it looks that way. I found out that the combat vs. the vampires 2 games ago resulted in no renown and I'm very displeased by this. True we outnumbered the baddies and through the use of tactics we're able to secure the advantage, but NO renown gain? Really? That's bullshit.

I don't like arbitrary and capricious renown gain. I know if I was the player of Michael i'd be irritated by not only the over zealous punishment but the insistence on him being barely fostern after that punishment occurred several months ago. Let's just remember how frustrating the climb in rank is, unwritten time limits, secret renown hits, months long challenges... Do we really need to make it also completely hands off for players now too?

If your reading this pissed off. I am but only a little. Super loves you okay!?

Regards,
Dolan
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Holy shit fast Chris response!
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:05 pm

By the book we gain renown for non lethal circumstances, so why no renown gain for vs. the vampires?
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:07 pm

I can't honestly look at statements like "people with high rank are advocating..." without getting a hate in my eyes. Renown is a thing in the book. Go read Adren rank and see where it says that some people NEVER get there because they NEVER get the renown . Then tell me that things are being run too hard.
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:07 pm

I personally like to keep track of my own renown because previously I'va had to take a half game to write out a sheet. This is what I was reffering to when I said I was doing a renown sheet. I wasn't assuming I could keep track of my own renown and decide when I was ready.

Just clearing things up.
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:15 pm

P.S. Fred, a character was Satired out of his Athro challenge last week to starting Fostern for killing one Kinfolk.
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:20 pm

I don't think your voice is relevant In this conversation Justin. Your character has everything to gain by monopolizing elder level gifts and keeping a thumb on characters you don't want to rank and threaten Jacobs power base. The book says a lot of stupid things and contradicts itself numberous times it was written by drunks.

Still not mad.

'(@____-)'
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:43 pm

We aren't changing things from how it's been run for the past several years. Players have never kept track of their own renown. They have always submitted it to the STs. I don't get where you guys are getting this "It's a change!" mentality from. It isn't. It's a reminder that

A) This IS a new staff.
B) That does not mean that everything is fair game until we say otherwise.

For craps sake we got told more than once now "Well X isn't in the new house rules. If it isn't explicit then it isn't a thing." That's bull. Common sense is a thing.

The STs are in charge of everything that happens and that includes renown loss. Hell if you guys want to start GVTing people for stuff rather than taking renown hits then fine. Justin is 110% absolutely right when he says that the books states that most people don't make it past Fostern. I think this game is no where near lethal enough. Eerie Moon is far less lethal than the vast majority of games out there.

P.S. Watch the implied slander.
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:54 pm

This is nothing short of Cliath oppression. Chris is a tyrant.
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PostSubject: Re: Renown and you   Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:13 pm

Due to the inability to have a logical discussion this thread is being locked.

The initial announcement stands. Don't assume your renown and any renown you want to claim must be submitted to the STs. This is no different than how it's been under previous staffs.

Period.
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